in 2008. >> but this is a high wire act with joe biden. they are going to be pouring cola down his throat. they'll have a couple of days of bad polling. you have ryan who is very impressive but hasn't done this before. and biden who is a high wire act in an attack mode, which isn't always his natural place. it will make for a good -- >> if i can ask you this, hilary. there is an immediate reaction to these debates about, wow, how do you feel? there is so much information. and this was such a sconstant substantivive debate between romney and the president. you can't score that at all. there is an initial impression and a second impression that develops over time. how does that factor? we've seen it. they are going to try to grind down romney on the idea that he is a chia chameleon, who do you trust, to he really performed well. >> well, the group of undecideds showed that they didn't necessarily change their vote one way or the other. i think when you have -- paul ryan is not going to be able to do what mitt romney did. he was the chairman